Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era?

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (movieman)

Fri, 04 May 2012 16:56:09 GMT

thank you for the input. I look forward to being able to enjoy this hobby for quite some time. However, the factors that create this community look like they are under attack by several factors.

1. Integrated cpu/gpu becoming enough to get by for mainstream (AMD/Intel)
2. Software companies that are not pushing hardware limits with their games(Blizzard, Valve, Crytek, console ports)
3. Rising GPU prices could be a tell tell trend that the discrete GPU market is in decline (690 is pretty darn expensive, and one could argue that the 680 is really a $300 card being sold for $500)
4.(going out on a limb here) shrinking middle class---->less buyers--->higher prices

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Brad_Hawthorne)

Thu, 03 May 2012 18:46:46 GMT

As long as demand for computers with slots exist there'll be demand and supply to fill those slots. Discrete card use will only die with the death of slot specifications.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (kougar)

Thu, 03 May 2012 18:43:03 GMT

No, we're not even close to the end of a discrete GPU era.

There is only so much silicon real estate to work with, which is why Intel has been so slow about rolling out faster IGPs. Doing so would require larger die sizes, and they can only make the chip so large before the fabrication costs exceed a cost efficient ratio. It also creates a serious problem when they are aggressively trying to target lower power markets, increasing the die size for better graphics performance hampers that.

Another thing about die size, is that if they combined a GTX 680 and an Ivy Bridge chip together the resulting die size would still be huge... everyone would need powerful CPU coolers and additional PWM circuitry / more expensive motherboards to support the CPU socket drawing all the CPU + GPU power combined.

So in other words, built-in graphics will never even replace the mid-range GPU market. It will replace the low-end market and eat into the mid-range market, but replace it completely? I don't think so. Not unless fabrication technology changes radically to allow greatly smaller or more efficient chips. The constant quest for more CPU power and faster GPUs will ensure that as the industry shrinks chips, most of the real estate gains will be spent on adding more performance rather than combining everything into one massive chip.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (knightsilver)

Thu, 03 May 2012 08:47:39 GMT

Im not current on the upcomming Intel and Nvidia nm, but its going to get super real when they hit 2nm?

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (kidcrumb)

Thu, 03 May 2012 08:20:41 GMT

Intel is trying to get rid of discrete graphics cards with their CPU/integrated thing, Nvidia is trying to get rid of CPUs with their CPGPU thing. Both are trying the same thing, just from different sides.

Intel wants you to spend more money on a CPU, Nvidia a GPU.

But in any case it wont go away. Articles like this keep popping up every so often signifying the end of some era that will still continue for a long time.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (kaninja)

Wed, 02 May 2012 23:00:10 GMT

This question has been asked many times over the past decade, it circulates with the other question, "is PC gaming dead?". The answer as always, is no for both.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (asmodyus)

Wed, 02 May 2012 22:29:54 GMT

jimmycricket

asmodyus

I don't know I think this article as more merit than people think.
First off an intel 4000 can play skyrim at 1680 x 1050 at a decent quality and get over 30 fps per second. Now that not a lot but what we have is the entry level gaming computers not needing to buy the 100 to 150 dollar video card.

So when the avg computer monitor resolution is 1366×768 and an intel 4000 will pull 45+ fps on skyrim at that resolutions. You will have people start buying more computers with out the graphics cards.

Yes there is the extreme gamers like us that are gaming at 1920x1080+ (6410x1152 adjusted more me) but really what percentage are we at. and what is this intel 2nd generation higher end GPU/CPU what till we see what the 5000 and 6000 can do. Plus look at what the arm chips are doing on the tablets and tablets are still young.

I find that to be pointless
Why by a PC to play a game at it's lowest settings and on a low res when you can go cheaper and get a console and play at 1080p and get nearly the same quality picture

One of the reason for PC gaming is to do thing you can't do on console and if you're not doing them then isn't it better to just stick to consoles

Yeah but I use to own and sell a Gaming system builder and are number one seller was computer that had at the time 9600GT. You will be surprised that people do buy computers for gaming that an PS3 wouold be way better at. You got remember

1. A lot of consumer are not educated and know nothing about computers and video cards.
2. Money is everything and if somebody can get a gaming computer for a certain price and plays games at 30fps there happy.

I hardly ever sold our high end dual 9800GTX computers. it was always the low end gaming computers that sell. So if you can sell computer with a CPU/GPU combo that get decent FPS at the standard resolution than you have a hot gaming computer. And with the right marketing know body will know the better.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (knightsilver)

Wed, 02 May 2012 20:30:52 GMT

And how did u come to this conclusion?

1.Proof
2.Backup the proof
3.multi supporting arguments
4. Just didnt read on some webpage

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (mwparrish)

Wed, 02 May 2012 12:30:46 GMT

Dear Loyal Subjects,

The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.

- GPU, Discrete

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (EVGA_JacobF)

Wed, 02 May 2012 10:45:39 GMT

Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era?

Nope, no way.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Johnny_Utah)

Wed, 02 May 2012 10:40:05 GMT

donta1979

Its a tomshardware article, a majority of the guys doing reviews/articles there as well as most of the subscribers are tards.... dont believe me go look at the gaming cpu article a 980x is better than a 980 for gaming I about rofled at the claims on that site.

Exactly. Considering the source, this is laughable. The talk of "end of days" has been around for a long time and so have extremely expensive discrete GPU's. Looks like AMD and Nvidia still think there is a good market for them, doesn't it?

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Brad_Hawthorne)

Wed, 02 May 2012 10:03:34 GMT

It's only a danger of entry level and some mainstream use. Enthusiast level pushes too much to put on a single die without going outside the thermal and electrical envelope that a socket would have. Also monetarily, it doesn't make sense either. Imagine mating the power of a CPU to something like a GK104 die. Right now NVIDIA has all it's cards on the GK104 and it's laser cut derivatives that didn't bin for GTX680. That kind of binning process would not work well with die space available for a CPU socket. Several business and technical issues prevent enthusiast level APUs even if you ignore patent law getting in the way of someone like NVIDIA. The only players that can play on the APU field are Intel and AMD.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (1ceTr0n)

Wed, 02 May 2012 09:59:26 GMT

Your smoking some good stuff OP

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (lehpron)

Wed, 02 May 2012 09:56:01 GMT

No, these APU's by AMD and Intel are a greater threat to discrete graphics because of the march towards putting more on the die. For both AMD and nVidia, the majority of their sales and revenue comes from mainstream and midrange, while entry-level is about as big as high-end-- but nVidia is loosing their entry-level to AMD and Intel and eventually will start loosing their precious mainstream, shifting costs upwards.

I personally think high-end graphics will always be discrete and never end, but average prices will soar because the cost to produce a brand new series/architecture has traditionally been paid for by the cheaper high volume sales. If high-end ends up the only game with APU's taking everything else over, then GTX690 prices will become the norm in order for nVidia to maintain their profit margins. But with inflation and whoever tend to by such graphics cards, it may not be seen as appauling or shocking.

movieman

How much truth is there in this article. Is the $1000 gtx690 signifying the end of the mainstream discrete market, in which only a small percent of the gaming community will be buying gpus?
http://www.tomshardware.c...-gpu-nvidia,15484.html
I hope not, but if software companies don't make games that push hardware to the extreme, why would we need to buy gpus?

Don't discount the influence of the economy or the shrinking middle class; to me, they represent a significant portion of why the prices are where they are at and/or precieved popularity of high-end.

High-end in any market is niche, we could be talking about cars or sport equipment; majority sales comes from cheaper high-volume. In otherwords, we can't use GTX690's price to tell us anything about any other market than high-end.

Furthermore, nVidia didn't just make up the $1000 figure out of thin in in the hopes people pay for it, that i snot how it works. Those prices are the result of market research and analysis done prior to making the GTX690; meaning nVidia found out there was enough demand and they are willing to spend that much, thus nVidia prices it that way. We could even say that many GTX680 purchases were done in pairs, so GTX690 is a buy-one-get-one-free deal in one product, and priced reasonably because I don't know how naive anyone is to not pay twice as much for close to twice the performance for less than twice the cost in power. That's a feat by itself.

Typical volume sales comes from midrange on down, the back-to-school season is best fit while the majority of any store's sales occurs from Black Friday to winter; nVidia has yet to debut that and even their high-end GTX280 debuted in the summer 2008, so it was all the talk of enthusiast websites back then too, as if there was nothing else.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (sinephase)

Wed, 02 May 2012 09:10:13 GMT

moving to all integrated means moving about 2 years backwards in terms of raw power. I call BS.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (donta1979)

Wed, 02 May 2012 08:26:49 GMT

Its a tomshardware article, a majority of the guys doing reviews/articles there as well as most of the subscribers are tards.... dont believe me go look at the gaming cpu article a 980x is better than a 980 for gaming I about rofled at the claims on that site.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (jimmycricket)

Wed, 02 May 2012 06:19:58 GMT

asmodyus

I don't know I think this article as more merit than people think.
First off an intel 4000 can play skyrim at 1680 x 1050 at a decent quality and get over 30 fps per second. Now that not a lot but what we have is the entry level gaming computers not needing to buy the 100 to 150 dollar video card.

So when the avg computer monitor resolution is 1366×768 and an intel 4000 will pull 45+ fps on skyrim at that resolutions. You will have people start buying more computers with out the graphics cards.

Yes there is the extreme gamers like us that are gaming at 1920x1080+ (6410x1152 adjusted more me) but really what percentage are we at. and what is this intel 2nd generation higher end GPU/CPU what till we see what the 5000 and 6000 can do. Plus look at what the arm chips are doing on the tablets and tablets are still young.

I find that to be pointless
Why by a PC to play a game at it's lowest settings and on a low res when you can go cheaper and get a console and play at 1080p and get nearly the same quality picture

One of the reason for PC gaming is to do thing you can't do on console and if you're not doing them then isn't it better to just stick to consoles

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Solfaur)

Wed, 02 May 2012 04:11:13 GMT

I don't think we're at the end yet, at least as far as mainsteam and high-end gpu segment goes. Low-end yes, I'm sure many will prefer the cpu integrated graphics especially for office computers and such wich make a bulk of the market.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (asmodyus)

Wed, 02 May 2012 00:19:27 GMT

I don't know I think this article as more merit than people think.
First off an intel 4000 can play skyrim at 1680 x 1050 at a decent quality and get over 30 fps per second. Now that not a lot but what we have is the entry level gaming computers not needing to buy the 100 to 150 dollar video card.

So when the avg computer monitor resolution is 1366×768 and an intel 4000 will pull 45+ fps on skyrim at that resolutions. You will have people start buying more computers with out the graphics cards.

Yes there is the extreme gamers like us that are gaming at 1920x1080+ (6410x1152 adjusted more me) but really what percentage are we at. and what is this intel 2nd generation higher end GPU/CPU what till we see what the 5000 and 6000 can do. Plus look at what the arm chips are doing on the tablets and tablets are still young.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (starsmine)

Tue, 01 May 2012 12:41:26 GMT

almost everyone I know that has no clue about computers does not use one in the first place and were just happy with intel GMAs so... I find the artical flawed, people wanting more power out of the gpu part have always been they. they are not moving, except for possibly laptops where llano creates a nice balance.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (minger66)

Tue, 01 May 2012 12:33:50 GMT

Well there is some truth to the article, although the end conclusion is faulty. For the majority of users integrated graphics will suffice for thier needs, and reduce the cost of their pc. As such, the market for low end discrete gpu's will suffer. We need to recogonize that the members of this forum are representative of a very small subsection of the PC using public. This is not a market that Nvidia and AMD cater to anyway, so really not that big of a deal. As long as there is a need for the PC to do more than browse the internet and read email, there will be a need for discrete gpus.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (seronx)

Tue, 01 May 2012 11:54:18 GMT

We are at the end where discrete/dedicated/card based GPUs are no longer considered HPC only.

Not sure about Haswell but Kaveri seems to have the same virtual memory address thing down perfectly for HPC and atomic ops.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Kuzak)

Tue, 01 May 2012 11:27:04 GMT

Reminds me of those articles that say the desktop computing is dead. Someone needs to muzzle all the analysts making articles like this. Or in this case, bound their hands.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (geek32)

Tue, 01 May 2012 11:10:07 GMT

if only game devs squeeze much out of the latest hardware technology.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (OV3RCLK4)

Tue, 01 May 2012 11:07:26 GMT

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Bkatt)

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:25:11 GMT

The article was flawed when they tried to use the GTX 590 as a example.

As long as people want to play games and other things that require more power than a IGP can handle (AKA, other than movies and facebook games) their will be a market for graphic cards.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (quadlatte)

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:15:54 GMT

Khalus

Not a chance...I don't see them ever going away, at least not anytime soon, maybe another 20+ years or so. Along with the enthusiast gamer that builds overkill PCs for no reason, there are still many fields that require a high-end discrete GPU.

i want to see ivy bridge render a large 3D cad file or any other tesla type task

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Brad_Hawthorne)

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:15:28 GMT

Consumers dictate shifts in technology, not some random person at Tom's Hardware. A fundamental part of PCs are card slots, this will not change anytime soon. Also something that will not change anytime soon are the best performance GPUs do not share a die with a CPU.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (Khalus)

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:10:15 GMT

Not a chance...I don't see them ever going away, at least not anytime soon, maybe another 20+ years or so. Along with the enthusiast gamer that builds overkill PCs for no reason, there are still many fields that require a high-end discrete GPU.

Re:Are we at the end of the discrete gpu era? (quadlatte)

Tue, 01 May 2012 10:08:58 GMT

has not this bell been rung before? every few years it's the end of xxxx and sounds like Jack Gold has a axe to grind and owns some intel stock