Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (diplomacy)

Wed, 22 Feb 2012 09:09:58 GMT

As far as future proofing goes, unless AMD comes out with something crazy, I think the 3960x and its heirs will be tops for a while. the Die shrink for IBE may allow some additional overclock, Haswell and Broadwell aren't really focusing on raw cycles/calcs per second either. It seems like we have hit something of a wall. which is good for future-proofing.

Intel seems to have gotten tired of just shoving more power through everything and wants to optimize their processors before moving forward. oh well, Nvidia will figure out something to do with all the excess power 0.o

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (thegreatga)

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 17:44:23 GMT

well said

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (DarkOwnage_)

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 15:46:22 GMT

Awesome explanations! Looks like I need to do some further research between now and summertime ;). I will definitely be taking your advice into consideration when upgrading.

Thanks for all the information and help! Very much appreciated!

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (lehpron)

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 14:48:59 GMT

DarkOwnage_

So if Kelpar will be the best this year than that is important to note.

The Kepler variations will be better than their 500 series counterparts, it has to be or it wouldn't sell. So if you want the "GTX680", wait and search for the rumors of it's codenamed GPU core supposedly known as "GK110". Rumors claim this summer 2012.

DarkOwnage_

I plan on going multi-gpu later down the road. So I would rather purchase the best graphics card out right now (NVidia only) then later down the road while my computer would then be considered "decent" I will purchase another one. Yes, I will have multi-display but only two monitors max.

This is important because it makes the distinction of which socket you should go for. LGA1155 is the mainstream socket, it succeeded 1156 and 775 before it. As a result, it is limited in PCIe lanes to just 16. Intel figures if you intend on mult-GPU but not high-end, then that socket works for you. But seeing how you emphasize "best", X79 and its LGA2011 processors with 40 lanes of PCIe is more advantageous long-term.

The issue is the commonly argued PCIe x8 versus x16. Currently based on the 2.0 specification, even the highest end cards don't loose more than 5% in x8, effectively saturating the 1.0 specification that appeared seven years ago-- it took that long for PCIe cards to fill up the bandwidth. Many folks assume because x8/x16 is negligible now, then it will always been like that thus why worry about it, or by the time you want the extra space they assume you'll upgrade everything for graphics cards. PCIe 2.0 spec debuted in 2007, we reached 2% loss in x8 with the debut of GTX480, in just three years. So between 2-3 years from now, those future 3.0 cards will max out the 2.0 spec by reaching x8 3.0 (2.0 was double 1.1, 3.0 is double 2.0, etc).

This is why I don't advise if intending high-end multi-GPU with LGA1155 even if using an Ivy Bridge processor with better CPU overclocking, you only get 16 PCIe 3.0 lanes; and split among two x16 slots makes them run x8 signal each. Once you get twin Keplers, you can't continue upgrading to a future pair of Maxwells or whatever comes after, you will loose more percent of performance. Higher CPU overclock will not compensate for lack of PCIe lanes. It makes more sense in terms of future-proof to get X79 since you get at least two full 16 lane 3.0 x16 slots, which will include support for all future 3.0 cards until the PCIe 4.0 specification debuted in the 2014-2015 time frame.

DarkOwnage_

But when it comes to an environment that uses only 1 core will that 6 core processor still triumph that 4 core?

Since the L3 cache memory is shared among the cores, in single-threaded apps the higher L3 cache in the 6-core model will show itself against a quad with less L3 cache. So, in effect, yes; but how much depends on your programs.

DarkOwnage_

Ivy bridge processor going to be overall (OVERALL) best suited for my needs?

Ivy Bridge is just the codename Intel gives to shrinking Sandy Bridge to 22nm. So far rumors abound carry the implication is that Intel made minor improvements to the architecture such that media encoding and office applications will show up to 16% improvement. No real word on how/if it improves gaming, which thesedays are more GPU dependent. In the past shrinks haven't performed any differently, for your E8400, Intel added cache and upped the QFSB compared to an E6850.

DarkOwnage_

Will that i7 3820 be better than that Ivy Bridge processor? Keep in mind I will go SLI (only two graphics cards) later down the road.

Not necessarily, because of what was mentioned (and later in this post) regarding which socket they go into and their limitations. EVen if you overclocked both an i7-3820 (in X79) and i7-3770K (Ivy mainstream unlocked, in Z77) to the same frequency, with the same pair of high-end cards; they may perform the same in games. Except one is hotter and uses more power than the other; where the difference comes when you upgrade to a faster pair of graphics cards. The lower temperature lower power system will loose performance due to not enough PCIe lanes. Could just be 5-10%, but if you truly want the best, that might bother you because you could have gone for a slightly slower pair and get your money's worth (instead of a pair of GTX780's, go for GTX770's). Of course by then, an Ivy Bridge may come to X79 territory and you can just uprgade if you had a 3820 first. Then you gain the benefit of better overclocking at lower temperatures, because that's all enthusiast care about with Ivy Bridge.

DarkOwnage_

You stated that Ivy bridge aren't going to arrive in X79 territory even though they are coming out in April (rumor)? Can you explain that statement?

As above, Ivy Bridge is just the shrink of Sandy Bridge, but since there are many different sockets and many different schedules, they all arrive at different times.

Sandy Bridge first appeared in LGA1155 (desktop) and mPGA988b (laptop), then nine months later in LGA2011 for high-end desktops, but called "Sandy Bridge-E". Beginging next month and into the summer, the Xeon E5 server versions appear with codenames "Sandy Bridge-EP", "Sandy Bridge-EX" and "Sandy Bridge-EN" for all configurations.

When Ivy Bridge comes, it will succeed in that order, which is why desktop and laptop parts come in April first. Ivy Bridge isn't unique to what comes in April; it is just the first wave. Many people just assume Ivy Bridge = LGA1155, which is false becuase the enthusiast-perspective is usually narrow-minded.

DarkOwnage_

I definitely plan on buying the top-notch graphics card out when I do upgrade in April-July (will that Kelpar?). Will GK110 be faster than a GTX580? You state more than 2-way SLI, so its a single GPU card correct? You state, GK104 will be faster than GTX580, but is GTX560's successor and only a 2-way SLI product. Are GTX560's a dual GPU card? And a GK104 will be a dual GPU card? Or is there another reason why it has a 2-way SLI only limitation?

Rumors are hard to decripher this early, but the most common ideas are that the codenames from Fermi will succeed the same segment of the market as Kepler. Meaning, GTX560 Ti had a GF104 die and limited to 2-way SLi, it was a midrange card. Well the first rumored Kepler variant to appear is called "GK104" so it is thought a "GTX660 Ti" midrange Kepler will arrive first to counter HD7970, while the HD7990 dual-GPU card will be countered by GK110-- which is thought to be "GTX680", the succesor to GTX580.

Your GTX285 has two SLi connector tabs, meaning it is 3-way capable by default and only 4-way capable in certain boards. Most of the current 500 series cards have just one, so they are traditionally 2-way limited. GTX570 and 580 have two SLI connector tabs, so 3-way default. The GF104 based GTX560 Ti is not 3-way capable, so it is thought that the Kepler successor GK104 won't be either. But we are about 2-3 months from really knowing which theories are correct.

Do I belieive any of this, not exactly. I believe GK104 will be the "GTX680" because there is a speculative rumor/article where nVidia expected more from AMD's HD7970 so why bring out the big boys if the fight isn't big? They could just bring a GPU barely faster and just brand it as high-end; we'd never know. Plus there is some indication of two versions of GK104 coming, which would imply a succesoor to both GTX570 and GTX580, or just as well a GTX560 and GTX 560 Ti successor as well. There is just no way to know this early.

One thing for sure, GK104 isn't the fastest possible from Kepler. You'll wait forever if you want the best, make a call and deal with it.

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (DarkOwnage_)

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:20:03 GMT

Alright, first let me explain the whole "best" term I am throwing around because I don't believe I made it clear in my last post.

Best = Is the most future proof hardware out right now or coming out, it is the bleeding edge of technology. While meeting my over all needs and expectations.

So using that definition of best, I want the best processor and graphics card for gaming/media encoding. I do A LOT (emphasis on A LOT) more gaming than media encoding. I want to pick a graphics card that is revolutionary and not just an "upgrade" in the current line. For example, I don't want to buy a 580 GTX when the Kelpar cards are suppose to be better than the 500 series. Kelpar cards = new generation of graphics cards and not in the line of the 500 series. So putting that in a question. I want the best graphics card lol. Are the Kelpar cards truly going to be better than the 500 series? Or are they going to be another 9800 kind of series cards where they were meant to replace the 8000 series cards and were for those people on a budget (yes I am aware they are used for physx too). Best graphics card for me, Kelpar? Keep in mind I will be wanting to make this computer this year. Nvidia doesn't tend to release a new generation of graphics cards more once a year. So if Kelpar will be the best this year than that is important to note.

lehpron
Even a $2k budget can drain away with certain components, does it include tax and shipping which might be another $200? Do you plan on multi-display or multi-GPU?

I plan on going multi-gpu later down the road. So I would rather purchase the best graphics card out right now (NVidia only) then later down the road while my computer would then be considered "decent" I will purchase another one. Yes, I will have multi-display but only two monitors max.

lehpron
No such thing as "best" because it is a moving target. Almost doesn't matter how far ahead you plan it, you need to be comfortable with getting something that gets succeeded within those few months, your comment regarding getting one processor and seeing a price drop of another would tell me that you're not ready. I suggest you toss out the idea of "best" and focus on why you want to upgrade in the first place, and only compare to what you had before, not what will be.

I am aware of how technology is out of date as soon as you walk out of the store. I work in IT for a living :/. And refer to my first post on the explanation of "best". Although, I really didn't see the need to explain it. But if it'll get me more advice so be it ;).

lehpron
Hence my first question, what do you do or plan to? You said up top that while you do some media encoding, you want the focus to be in gaming. Despite quads being around for five years, a majority of games use between 2-4 cores, so going for a 6-core or more would only work for gaming if you keep it longer than you kept your E8400 (because new games from the ground up can take 2-3 years to make, that is if a 6-threaded game is being worked on right now, more than likely no). Part of the reason is that Intel refuses to lower the price of even older Gulftown 6-cores, let alone new Sandy Bridge 6-cores. The software industry thrives on who owns what, and most consumers own dual-cores with HT or quads, hence why most games are happy with those CPUs.

True, I do understand that most games barely take full advantage of a multi-core CPU. But I do plan on running a certain game in a VMWare environment. It's a game called Rappelz (not high end graphics we are talking here, the game is 6+ years old), and I am currently able to run two of the games with no problem on this computer. But with VMWare I might be running 4 games at once. I do not want to explain why. So dedicating 2 core per VM (only running two VM's + sandboxed in those VM's) that requires 4 cores ;). Keep in mind, the other games running are on characters with LOW graphics settings, they are used to buff my main character, so they won't be played if that makes sense.

Now, is the 6 core processor going to be overall, yes I know 6 core processor will triumph 4 core processor when it comes to multi-threaded environments. But when it comes to an environment that uses only 1 core will that 6 core processor still triumph that 4 core? Ivy bridge processor going to be overall (OVERALL) best suited for my needs? Questions I need answers too :).

lehpron
There is a quad-core for X79, called i7-3820 with an MSRP lower than 2600K for Z68/P67, it just debuted this week but only a few places carry it. It should be widerspead within a month and we might not see an update until around when you intend to upgrade, so keep an eye out. That might be the best option if you intend on multi-GPU.

If no intent to multi-GPU (considering you kept a single GTX285 this whole time), then you don't need an X79. Around June there will be 22nm shrinks of the mainstream Sandy Bridge in LGA1155 socket, codenamed Ivy Bridge. First debuting as quads, top model called "i7-3770K" probably priced at 3.5GHz, you may achieve 5GHz on air at lower temps and less voltage compared to any 32nm quad. Ivy Bridge parts aren't projected to arrive in X79 territory this year since they are so new, maybe next year.

Also, you used the word best (*gasp*) if I intend on going multi-gpu. "But technology is a moving target..."blah blah blah :P, good to see the word "best" in exactly how I was meaning. Anyways, since I don't plan on upgrading my computer until April-July. Will that i7 3820 be better than that Ivy Bridge processor? Keep in mind I will go SLI (only two graphics cards) later down the road.

Here is where I have questions on what you stated. You stated that Ivy bridge aren't going to arrive in X79 territory even though they are coming out in April (rumor)? Can you explain that statement?

lehpron
As for graphics, if you don't plan to upgrade for another 6 months, just get the best single-GPU card you can afford; by then GK110 will be out, the spiritual successor to GTX580 capable of more than 2-way SLI. The upcoming GK104 will be faster than GTX580, but it is rumored to be GTX560's successor and thus a 2-way only product.

560 follows succession of 460, 260, 9600GT, 8600GT, etc -- this is midrange, the second most popular high-volume segment.

I definitely plan on buying the top-notch graphics card out when I do upgrade in April-July (will that Kelpar?). Will GK110 be faster than a GTX580? You state more than 2-way SLI, so its a single GPU card correct? You state, GK104 will be faster than GTX580, but is GTX560's successor and only a 2-way SLI product. Are GTX560's a dual GPU card? And a GK104 will be a dual GPU card? Or is there another reason why it has a 2-way SLI only limitation?

Overall, thanks for the comments and questions! I appreciate the responses and the discussion!

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (thegreatga)

Sat, 18 Feb 2012 01:20:51 GMT

Don't forget to budget for a new quality power supply (I would really put money on this and go as big as you can for later upgrades), a quality case (capable of providing air movement or supporting some sort of water cooling), ram, cooling solution either air or water (I really like the new corsair -H series), HDD (you might need something bigger if your doing any video editing <500GB is getting small these days), some decent fans, and don't forget a copy of windows... If you interested in seeing a decent selection on a pc (without trying to promo) check out ncix website and dream machine, its $3300 (a little over budget).

I like to buy parts slow, rather than buy many parts at once, so that you can get a machine going and consantly purchase newer parts and keep up with the market. For example I have a x58, and when new keplar cards come out I will splurge for them, then plan on upgrading the mobo this fall (as to try and make a huge purchase at once).

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (lehpron)

Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:48:56 GMT

Even a $2k budget can drain away with certain components, does it include tax and shipping which might be another $200? Do you plan on multi-display or multi-GPU?

DarkOwnage_

I am looking for the best processor, graphics card, and motherboard to build a new computer.

No such thing as "best" because it is a moving target. Almost doesn't matter how far ahead you plan it, you need to be comfortable with getting something that gets succeeded within those few months, your comment regarding getting one processor and seeing a price drop of another would tell me that you're not ready. I suggest you toss out the idea of "best" and focus on why you want to upgrade in the first place, and only compare to what you had before, not what will be.

Hence my first question, what do you do or plan to? You said up top that while you do some media encoding, you want the focus to be in gaming. Despite quads being around for five years, a majority of games use between 2-4 cores, so going for a 6-core or more would only work for gaming if you keep it longer than you kept your E8400 (because new games from the ground up can take 2-3 years to make, that is if a 6-threaded game is being worked on right now, more than likely no). Part of the reason is that Intel refuses to lower the price of even older Gulftown 6-cores, let alone new Sandy Bridge 6-cores. The software industry thrives on who owns what, and most consumers own dual-cores with HT or quads, hence why most games are happy with those CPUs.

There is a quad-core for X79, called i7-3820 with an MSRP lower than 2600K for Z68/P67, it just debuted this week but only a few places carry it. It should be widerspead within a month and we might not see an update until around when you intend to upgrade, so keep an eye out. That might be the best option if you intend on multi-GPU.

If no intent to multi-GPU (considering you kept a single GTX285 this whole time), then you don't need an X79. Around June there will be 22nm shrinks of the mainstream Sandy Bridge in LGA1155 socket, codenamed Ivy Bridge. First debuting as quads, top model called "i7-3770K" probably priced at 3.5GHz, you may achieve 5GHz on air at lower temps and less voltage compared to any 32nm quad. Ivy Bridge parts aren't projected to arrive in X79 territory this year since they are so new, maybe next year.

As for graphics, if you don't plan to upgrade for another 6 months, just get the best single-GPU card you can afford; by then GK110 will be out, the spiritual successor to GTX580 capable of more than 2-way SLI. The upcoming GK104 will be faster than GTX580, but it is rumored to be GTX560's successor and thus a 2-way only product.

560 follows succession of 460, 260, 9600GT, 8600GT, etc -- this is midrange, the second most popular high-volume segment.

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (DarkOwnage_)

Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:59:33 GMT

Thanks for the advice! But my budget is around $2,000 for the tower itself. I do not plan on reusing any of my current computers parts at all either.

I am looking for the best processor, graphics card, and motherboard to build a new computer. I have always been against buying it piece by piece over a span of a year since by the time you get all the parts, some of your parts are now outdated :/. So I plan on buying all the pieces at once.

But this doesn't mean I want to buy what is out right now. If there is better hardware dropping in the next few months (or even 6 months), I would rather wait and jump on that instead ;). And yes, I understand new hardware drops like every 6 months. Hence why I would prefer to build this by this summer. But that can even change if something revolutionary is going to drop in Q3 or Q4 this year :x.

Basically, I don't want to buy a i7-920 and a few months later the i7-3930's drop. I would rather have waited and bought the 3930's. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the input!

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (thegreatga)

Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:12:07 GMT

I'm a bargain shopper, so I shop slow (over the course of a year).
However if you aiming for summer than that's great, the X58 platform is still a great platform (proven of the last few years) but I imagine over the next 2 years it will begin to look dated. With the newest X79 platform still in its infancy you might run into a few hiccups stability wise (although you might not at all). I7 2500~2700K cpu's are just about excellent for gaming, providing excellent performance at stock speed and are crazy overclockable (probably the best choice currently) and you can pickup a new chip for around 200-300 dollar range if you shop around. Evga also makes some sweet boards for these.

The keplar video cards are suppose to be replacement for the 500 class that we are currently in (as far as I know), but haven't given a release date at the moment that i've heard of. If I was you I wait for the keplar to be released (if your a nvidia fan), or if you can afford 2 580's 3gb that would set you up for the next couple of years and allow for a third monitor for surround gaming if you so desired. SLI is great if you can afford it, if you choose the cheaper path just know that with coming games and higher resolution and multi monitor setups the more ram on the video card the better... also you could go with amd's newest 7000's cards which beet nvidia's current 580.

So many choices

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (DarkOwnage_)

Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:55:37 GMT

Hmm, can you elaborate on why to wait until Winter? I would prefer to build the computer at least by summer time :/.

Currently, I have two monitors that run at 1920 x 1080. I believe they're 23" LCD-LED monitors. I plan on buying a bare minimum card of a 580 so is Kelpar aimed towards enthusiast or the bargin shopper? I heard it's suppose to drop in Q2 of this year too.

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate all the advice I can get :).

Re:Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (thegreatga)

Thu, 16 Feb 2012 20:42:09 GMT

It's always a waiting game, but their is a ton of new hardware coming in the next few months not including the newest X79. If it was me, I would bank a few more bucks and wait til summer then start investing for the winter months. Good luck, also what resolution and monitor count are you expecting to run? 1,2,3? or more?

Computer Upgrade - Processor and Graphics Card Question (DarkOwnage_)

Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:46:54 GMT

Hey guys,
I am looking to upgrade my current system after having it for many years now :). I plan on upgrading my entire computer this year so it doesn't necessarily have to be this month.

Anyways, I am looking for opinions on processors and graphics cards. But first let me point out I am a pretty hardcore gamer, but I also do some video converting (.MKV to .AVI just as an example). So this computers primary focus should be aimed towards gaming.

Now, for my current system specifications:
- Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 @ 3ghz.
- EVGA Geforce 285 GTX
- Kingston HyperX DDR2 8GB RAM
- Western Digital 128GB SSD
- Western Digital 320GB HDD
- Soundblaster X-Fi Titanium

Alright, I was thinking of waiting to upgrade to the new Ivy bridge processor that is suppose to drop in April (rumor mill). New Ivy bridge processor, the 3930k C2, or any other processor?

Graphics card wise, I keep hearing talk about a new generation of Nvidia cards called Kelpar. I heard it's suppose to out perform the 580 GTX but cost as much as a 560 Ti? Recommendations?

Thanks guys!